Talking Music with Gabbie and Cassidy Frost

Mustard had the pleasure of speaking with Substack authors Cassidy Frost and Gabbie whose Substack's both focus on music.

Mustard has observed that humans love music. Humans can be found singing their favorite songs in automobiles, at their show, and in the kitchen while making sofrito. Wherever you may be there is a solid chance that music is playing. It may not be music you particularly enjoy but it is music nonetheless. Heck, you could be reading this right now listening to music. If so, what are you listening to? Mustard is curious!

As a condiment who can be found in your local supermarket or big box retail store they were introduced to music thanks to store manager Steve. Steve selected music that they believed all humans shopping for discounted beef, bottled water, and soon to be expired milk would enjoy. The song that made Mustard fall in love with music was none other than Hootie & The Blowfish’s “Only Wanna Be With You.” Ever since Mustard heard Darius Rucker sing they knew they wanted to learn more about humans who make music.

Today they had the pleasure of speaking with two humans who are passionate about music. You may have seen them around on your Substack Notes or another social media platform. They are:

• Cassidy Frost
  is the author of Substack publication Dedicate Your Life to Music.

• Gabbie
  is the author of Substack publication New Bands for Old Heads.

Frost is the co-founder of Public Display PR, Artist Manager, A&R, and Composer. They help artists build their true brand that will better help them connect with their fanbase. Gabbie is a music critic turned curator who helps introduce their readers to new music for those who may be stuck in the 90s and early 2000s. Both of these humans provide an incredible service.

Together we had the pleasure of speaking about the first album that made an impact on us, transitioning from TikTok to Substack, the music industry, and so much more!

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1. Mustard is grateful and appreciative to have you both join them at Music Shelf. How are you both doing today? 

Cassidy: I'm so happy to be here, and in such good company!

Gabbie: Hi, Mustard! I took the day off work today, so I'm feeling better than usual. Thanks for asking

2. Mustard has observed that our common denominator is we all love music. Can you recall the first artist, song, or album that made an impact on you? Is this an album you still listen to now? 

Cassidy: I loved music as a kid, but I remember the first time I listened to Sonic Youth, probably when I was like 12 or 13, just being like. Oh. OH. I'm whatever this is. I think I started with the album Dirty.

Gabbie: This is an incredibly tricky question to answer! Music was always a huge part of my life, even from very early childhood, so I don't remember hearing one specific song or album that suddenly flipped a switch. Because my musical upbringing was a little bit unusual for the Standard American Child (eesh, I'm not sure I like that acronym), I'm going to take the opportunity to share one of the songs that I grew up with, still love to this day, and can safely assume none of our readers have heard of.

Vladimir Visotsky was one of the so-called Soviet Bards, or essentially folk singers who wrote and recorded their own music outside of the Soviet establishment. He's often compared to Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, or Tom Waits. This song is called "She Was in Paris" -- my favorite line was always "But what am I to her?/She was in Paris/Marcel Marceu himself/had something to say to her."

3. Gabbie: your substack New Bands for Old Heads helps introduce new artists listeners are unlikely to discover on your own. Mustard wonders: how do you discover these artists? What does it mean to have an old head? 

Gabbie: Is it cheating if I send you to the article I wrote about this? 

Okay, I'll be less glib. Personally, I rotate out hassling my group text of some fellow No Ripcord writers (Joe Rivers, David Coleman, and Juan Rodriguez) with obsessively keeping on top of release calendars, scanning new music on TikTok, Bandcamp, and Substack, and heavily leaning into Spotify recommendations. I double check the aggregators last to see if there's anything obvious I missed.

I suppose you don't have to be old to be (or have) an old head, but I admit that's what I was thinking about when I titled the TikTok series (and eventually the newsletter). Usually it just means somebody who's been around in the scene a long time, but I love the vagueness of it. What scene are we talking about? What's your scene? 

The thing most old heads have in common is that they stopped listening to new music at some point. I say '90s and early 2000s because that's when my own tastes should have calcified as an elder millennial, but I welcome every kind of old head and all types of music.

When I recommend new bands, I focus on the ones where I can find a parallel to a familiar older sound. I find that if you haven't been paying attention to new music in a while, it can sometimes help to ease back into it. Maybe immediately jumping to hyperpop isn't going to convert a new music skeptic.

4. Gabbie and Cassidy: could you share more about your transition from popular social media application TikTok to Substack? 

Cassidy: I started Tiktok around the beginning of the year. I found being on the platform stressful, to the point of it causing so much tension in my neck that I had to see a chiropractor multiple times a week. But it was good for connecting with artists all over, so I sort of just accepted it.

Then, a couple of months ago, I was in a private session with one of my clients. I was helping her strategize which content to make around her release. I found myself advising her to focus her efforts on making content that lit her up creatively because it's always the stuff that comes out the best and ultimately what connects with people.

I ended the session and promptly made a video announcing that I wouldn't be posting to TikTok anymore. Anyway, I'm here now.

Gabbie: It turns out that TikTok isn't actually ideal for making music content. The copyright restrictions are nebulous and inconsistent. Editing your way around them is tricky and attention spans are low. I've been finding myself having to talk about music without actually playing any of it for a while now, and at that point... why not write? 

Beyond that, I never felt like making little video clips was serious or fulfilling. Writing is a muscle I need to grow. I can't exactly say that I am a writer -- churning out one annual music review does not a writer make -- but I certainly enjoy it far more than being in front of a camera. Plus, now I can pepper my newsletter with all the songs and playlists I want!

5. Cassidy: your Substack Dedicate Your Life to Music will help musicians build a rad life and career around their music. How can musicians de-prioritize social media and use their energy better to connect with fans? 

Cassidy: Musicians need to sober up to the idea that vertical scroll social media isn't a very effective tool for most artists to grow their actual fanbase. (I define fans as people who spend money on your music and merch.)

IG and TikTok are a massive suck on your time and creativity that usually doesn't yield meaningful growth in terms of real listeners over time. Or if it does, it's often very dispersed. And it's a fanbase that's difficult to stay in touch with.

The majority of artists would be better off playing out on the street, filling their communities with music, making real connections with real local fans who can get excited about what they do, not to mention writing more songs and developing the kind of live show people tell other people about.

I love email marketing because what you send out reaches more of your fans than it would on social media and there are so many smart ways you can use it, even and especially if your list is fairly small to begin with. It generates less dopamine, but presumably you're not marketing your music for your own personal stimulation.

Email has a terrible reputation, but that's really how you move records. Emails don't have to be boring. They can be unhinged, joyful youtube video rants, or collage art, or anything you want them to be. 

6. Cassidy: Mustard has observed you are a Lo-Fi Guitar Goblin. How does one become a Lo-Fi Guitar Goblin?

Cassidy: You have to start by loving the sounds of crappy and broken instruments. Sample your dishwasher. Record your downstairs neighbors singing along to Steve Miller Band. And then play guitar a lot, but make it gobliny.

7. Cassidy: Mustard has also observed that some humans relax (and study) to Lo-Fi. How does Cassidy Frost like to relax? Do your riffs help put humans at ease? 

Cassidy: I spend a lot of time alone by the ocean looking for dolphins. Also I love sitting by creeks, they're fucking great. My favorite creek is about an hour north of where I live in SF. If I have some free time I love to drive up there, have a little seat by the creek and get fucking wrecked by the pathos of all things. You ever watch golden bay leaves fall from a tree down into a babbling brook? You ever smell a bay tree in the fall? Fuckin forget it, man.

8. Cassidy and Gabbie: you are going on a picnic. You bring along your little red radio. What meal do you bring on your picnic? What music are you listening to during the picnic?

Cassidy: It's August, so I've got tomatoes and corn on the mind. I could sit there and eat tomatoes off a cutting board with salt and olive oil all day. Clearly, Gabbie is in charge of the aux.

Gabbie: In the picnic basket: Fresh figs. Large green grapes. Various cheeses. A crusty baguette. Salted butter. Tinned fish. Lemons. 

On the radio: David Byrne's Rei Momo (I listen to old music, too!)

9. Gabbie and Cassidy: why is it important to love what you do and do what you love? 

Cassidy: Because there are easier ways to be rich and/or famous. There's no reason at all to make music unless you love what you're making.

Gabbie: Life is long. If you don't fill it with things you love, you'll go insane.

10. Cassidy: Could you share more about how you became a music publicist by accident?

Sure! In 2012 I was hired to manage a recording studio. It was at a time when home audio equipment had gotten really good and it was hard finding clients to book time. But I loved running the studio because I had access to all this amazing gear. I started doing PR for bands basically just to keep the lights on. 

After a few months, I realized that people need PR and I could totally start my own thing. And I did! Public Display PR is alive and well after 11 years and is run by my friend, co-founder and co-parent, Alex Haager.

11. Gabbie and Cassidy: would you agree that the music industry has adapted to playlists? Are playlists a natural progression from mixtapes and radio?

Gabbie: I do think that playlists are a natural progression from mixtapes, but I also think that playlists have forced the music industry to change (along with social media and general appetites for music consumption, all of which Cassidy will know much more about than I do). 

What I mean by that is... well, mixtapes aren't actually quite analogous to playlists, are they? It was much harder to make mixtapes, and listening to them required the same investment as any album (though I just now remembered the CD shuffle function eventually existed. Anyway!). I think that the true mixtape art form has been lost to the immediacy of the internet and instant gratification. 

12. Gabbie and Cassidy: What is the best way for a listener to train their algorithm? 

Gabbie: Honestly, just listen to your music. Listen to as much as you can, listen to the things you like, and if you want new music, listen to new music. If you keep replaying the same ten bands you were obsessed with in high school over and over, you can't expect to get good algorithmic recommendations. 

12. Cassidy and Gabbie: Mustard is a big fan of independent record labels such as Ska Punk International, Bad Time Records, and Beautiful Rat Records. Each of these labels have helped create close-knit communities with both their roster and fans. As both a publicist and as a human who recommends new music to those stuck in the 90s and early 2000s: why is it important that a musician work on building a community? How can artists present boundaries and avoid toxic parasocial relationships?

Cassidy: I'm so glad that there's public discourse about fans and the access they feel entitled to. I'm glad artists are speaking up.

I've been on the receiving end of harassment and stalking. I have mixed feelings about offering advice about how to present boundaries, in large part because it implies that artists setting boundaries will keep them safe from harm, which is a lie.

I think artists should be supported by society at large in enforcing whatever boundaries feel right to them. But I think this is really a problem with how society at large feels entitled to the time, attention, kindness, and even bodies of women and femmes, both famous and not.

Gabbie: Goddammit, Mustard! I didn't realize you were such a hard-hitting condiment! Look, I know next to nothing about the actual music industry. My thoughts about avoiding toxic parasocial relationships are formed entirely by watching Chappel Roan's recent video (I'm on her side, FWIW) and the maximum five times that I've been recognized in public because of my TikTok channel (which were so polite that most resulted in real life friendships). "How to be famous the right way" is not something I can give advice on.

But when it comes to musicians building community, I can say this: being a relatable human matters. I am all about helping small artists get heard, but I am more likely to listen to somebody's new single if they approach me like a person instead of some faceless marketing pitch. I know how much it sucks for artists to have to market themselves in the first place. Shouldn't the music be good enough? But we connect with other people before we're willing to hear them (or their music) out. That's just how it goes.

For what it's worth, I'm loving some of the Substacks I've seen from independent musicians. That's a crossover I didn't know I needed.

13. Gabbie: you recently noted that you don't notice lyrics unless they are good or terrible. You provided Tom Waits as an example that lyrics matter. Could you elaborate more on why lyrics matter with an artist such as Tom Waits? 

Gabbie: I'm prone to hyperbole, so I probably shouldn't have said that I don't notice lyrics. It's more accurate to say that bad lyrics don't ruin a great song for me, but good lyrics won't save a bad song. 

Tom Waits, though. That's a different story. Tom Waits, like the Soviet Bards I mentioned earlier in this interview, is a poet. I love his music first and foremost, divisive as he is, but there's no denying his lyrical prowess. For me, he's one of the few examples of somebody whose music would truly suffer in the absence of his lyrics (or in the presence of any others). Something about the pithy, sardonic little stories he weaves, often without any singing at all, just feels so satisfying. Just go listen to the first few bars of Frank's Wild Years. You can barely even call that a song! "Well Frank settled down in the Valley/And he hung his wild years/On a nail that he drove through/His wife's forehead..." aren't you hooked?

14. Cassidy: on the flip slide as a music publicist do you share your input with an artist about their lyrics/songwriting? Are you able to delve into what one of your consultations looks like?

Cassidy: I've given feedback on recordings before, but most of my consulting work is focused on branding and marketing and career strategy stuff, all of which are intertwined.

In my One Month Level Up 1:1 program we spend a couple of weeks doing some powerful artist message/identity/branding work that helps connect musicians with their own creative true north. We also dive deep into how to project that message in every aspect of what they're doing.

Because of this, artists I work with often go back and re-record or change up what they're doing stylistically after working with me. 

I'd say almost every one of my clients walk away with a clear, and sometimes very different understanding of what they're here to do as artists.

15. Cassidy and Gabbie: what do you expect to see from the music industry in 2025?

Gabbie: I've always said that I'm absolutely terrible at predicting trends. I'm hopeful that we'll continue to see more interest in live music, so that maybe some of these dying music festivals can get revived. I would also love to see more people leaning into the revival of the DIY/'zine culture that we had in the '90s. You have me thinking about mixtapes again, so I really have that on the brain!

Cassidy: I think we've hit peak vertical reel scroll and we'll see a massive exodus from IG and TikTok. 

16. Gabbie and Cassidy: do you have any last words?

Cassidy: WE LOVE YOU MUS!

Gabbie: Only that I'm so happy to have (virtually) met you both! I'm always really excited to meet people (and condiments) on other sides of the music biz. 

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Music Shelf with Mustard is a publication that interviews independent musicians from all across the globe. It is read in 34 states and 28 countries. Check out previous interviews here.

Music Shelf with Mustard originally began in early 2021. Inspired by independent musicians on social media application TikTok Mustard knew they had to do something to help share their music. Shortly after Music Shelf with Mustard was born. Its goal is to highlight independent artists from all across the globe. Mustard appreciates you taking the time out to read this interview.